Author John Eldredge on Wild at Heart, Father Wounds, and Christian Manhood

John Eldredge’s book Wild at Heart sparked a fire in Christian men, and called out churches for neglecting and misleading men’s souls. He not only clarified the heart of men and defined the call which God put within us, he pointed to the wounds from our earthly fathers and the impact it has on every facet of our lives. Mr. Eldredge was a big inspiration for my change of direction, and we cover a number of points in this episode on Wild at Heart, the greatest longing in the heart of a man (or boy), how to recognize and deal with woundedness, and more.

Key Topics

The inspiration for Wild at Heart
How has Ransomed Heart ministries and Wild at Heart changed men and churches?
The statement all men long to hear
Addressing father wounds
Being fathered by God

Audio Transcript

Mike Yarbrough: Mr. John Eldridge thanks so much for joining me today on the podcast.

John Eldredge: Yeah. Great to be here.

Mike Yarbrough: You know I always start off with actually me telling you how I came across wild at heart. I think a lot of the guys are going to be listening to this know who you are but we’ll give you probably give you a chance to talk a little about yourself in just a second but I thought I’d start off by sharing how I came across wild at heart and it was many years ago. I don’t want to make you feel old.

Mike Yarbrough: But while the Hard’s I think it’s it was published in 2001 and it probably wasn’t too long after that that that I was recommended to me actually. My wife and I were seeing a counselor and it was a lady and she must have since some lack of manliness in me which was definitely true at the time and said something to me along the lines of some guys at my church are reading this book called Wild at Heart. They really like it. Maybe you should check it out. And it was that was it. I said OK you know I’ll I’ll give it a shot it wasn’t much into reading at the time so what about me and when I picked it up I couldn’t put it down. And it absolutely connected with me. It helped change my focus. It redirected me in a lot of ways and just was a tremendous influence on me. And Wolfen iron very much comes out of that spirit of what wild and heart kind of began in me those years ago. And so I know I said it before we started the podcast officially but I want to say it again I really appreciate not only that book but the the ones that you’ve written since then and you and your writing has been a tremendous influence on me as a man.

John Eldredge: Wow I’m really really honored. Thank you. All right. Very very honored to hear that.

Mike Yarbrough: Well I’m honored to talk to you. And I want to give you just a chance to kind of tell you guys a little bit about what got you going in this direction. How wild and hard started and really what kind of puts you on this path.

John Eldredge: You know it was it was a combination of some things going on in mind. It’s kind of an unsettled ness a loss. A lot of internal anger. And I was hearing the exact same story in my counseling office.

John Eldredge: I had a small private practice here in Colorado Springs way back when and no matter what the presenting problem was the guys came in for the. You know as well. What’s your story on that. It’s the life that kind of gets there the husband in there whether it was their sexuality or a father or a lack of direction in their career. Depression. Once we kind of got past the details I just began running into the fact that every man’s soul is almost the same in our core you know core longings and also in some of our core wounded nests and struggles. And so it was out of that that I began doing a little bit of speaking on the heart of a man and how God heals father wounded how he restores our sexuality how we really are made to be warriors. And in our culture is done a lot of the mass collation and from that came the book and and things kind of took off from there.

Mike Yarbrough: Well yeah I think because it’s kind of written out of that heart think is one of the reasons that it connects with so many guys is that it does. It felt to me to be very much a culmination of many of the things that are kind of circling society everything. Like you said the emasculation the sort of what what men are getting from the church this idea of London is what you talk about you don’t want to talk about that for a second because I think when I read Wild at Heart that was the first time I’d really thought about and heard the idea that guys the men are are wounded by their fathers and that we carry around these wounds we’re always trying to kind of resolve these wounds even subconsciously even we don’t realize that we are and that God’s really the only one that can really bring the healing for those wounds ultimately.

John Eldredge: Yeah.

Mike Yarbrough: And I you know I wanted to kind of think through this a little bit because even guys that have good fathers like I’m a pretty good dad. I think you’re a good dad you know. I would imagine. But even with good fathers we can still experience a wound in us. And I guess how does he how do men recognize what those wounds are and how do we begin to kind of unpack that.

John Eldredge: Let me let me name credit where credit’s due. Gordon galbi wrote an excellent book back when it might have been in the 80s called The Healing of the masculine soul and that’s what really began to get me thinking about this. And then Leanne Payne has an excellent book as well. Around the same area called Crisis in masculinity. Well both of them were pointing to is most of the Men’s Movement try the direction of accountability. It kind of tries the direction of honor and dignity and good choices. Come on guys rise up and be a man.

John Eldredge: And I believe in honor and I believe in good choices. I believe in you and living strong. But back to the guys coming through my counseling practice back to my own experience it’s like telling a guy with a broken leg that he’s just got to get back in the race and it’s a marathon like you’re missing something really critical. And this is where a lot of the church programs continue to miss them because they are focusing on discipleship discipline. But when you understand when a little boy needs every little boy has two basic needs psychologically soulfully he needs to know that his dad it was him and he needs to know from his father validation affirmation you have what it takes and what’s what’s wild.

Is there a lot of reading on that. I saw a lot of psychological studies on that. But then I’m reading the Gospels in here in the story of Jesus baptism. I mean you have greatest man who ever lived. And he comes up out of the you know the Jordan down. His father speaks it’s a really rare moment in Scripture work a kind of extra call. It just speaks out loud so everybody can hear. And he does those two things it just blew my mind. He says Jesus love you you’re my beloved son. And I’m so proud of you. You are the real deal. You have what it takes. Mike I’m so pleased that’s what takes place there and you look at those two needs and you go oh my gosh. Like it’s the Son of God you needed those things. How much more do we can. And then this is where the wounding gets in. And then yes it typically takes place from the father because the way the universe is set up father son relationship is the deepest relationship because of the Father and of the Son. Like literally if you kind of get behind all matter and reality in what you find this is God the Father and God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. And so because of the Father Son relationship with such a deep deep thing in the fabric of the world and in our own being it tends to be the father. Now mother wounds are significant.

You know it can often come through a brother or a coach but but in those two places in those two places. Did you know that your dad adored to you. And did he over the course of growing up arrange for a thousand different times for you to understand. That you have what it takes. That you you are the real deal. You are a man and you’ll be a man. You have a genuine strengths. And then when we don’t get that either through silence passively or through what any man experienced was outright shaming hatred abandonment sexual abuse those core needs get very very wounded. And it shapes a man for the rest of his life.

Mike Yarbrough: Yeah yeah I think that’s definitely true. I certainly haven’t had the experiences you have with counseling with other men but I have spoken with other men and in pretty deep detail I guess. And one of the things that I found to be true of most amongst us is that oftentimes we can figure out can work our way backwards a lot of times you know sort of starting from where our father wounds are you know knowing exactly how we were hurt by our dad a lot of times we can say how do I view God in a lot of times that can sort of shine a light in my experience at least on if I view God as being distant for example. Oh my gosh you know that’s because my dad was distant or if I view if I view God as being harsh for example example and being very not you know there’s there’s no realm of friendship there with God where he’s just he’s just he’s basically just very hard on me. You know he’s always judging me. Well that’s how I feel about my dad a lot of times we can kind of work back from there and go OK why do I view who is supposed to be the most loving the most kind the most forgiving creator of my very being. Why do I view them in any kind of negative him in any kind of negative light. Well a lot of times we can trace back to our experience with our dad. Would you say that’s true.

John Eldredge: Yeah. Th Mike that’s a great that’s a great way to go about it because I know for me I know that a lot of god it’s a pretty hard time relating to God as either I believe of God. I love God. I was faithful in church. I mean this was years of my Christian experience love Jesus. But this is Father’s thing I would hear people pray you know in my little small group gatherings and there would be this intimacy that would use words like papa when they were praying. It’s really high like I was not OK with that. And and after I got over my own judgments I had to go out on. Like what’s the deal. That’s really provoking something in you. So I think that I need to write I think that is a good way. And I think another doorway that’s super helpful for men is this like validation like everything you do and everything you avoid is because of validation like this is how this is so deep in a man’s soul that if you create at work you are you’re going to you’re going to go to work for validation and if you’re great at sports you’re going to go to sports for validation if you’re not great at sports.

You’re going to stay away even though your friends invite you to come you know you don’t mess with us or we’re you know now the rain can and just play it on the ice like no thanks. Like why do you avoid that. Why do you avoid the things you avoid. And why do you chase the things you chase. Well if you’re looking for validation and that’ll take you right back into the same core issues like why weren’t you validated earlier in your life. Why don’t you have a settled sense of validation. Why is that still such a compelling saying why do. Why do you wake up you know in fear. Three o’clock in the morning you know reading you know what a cast a presentation a promotion an interview like what why are those issues of exposure are still so raw for you. Well I’ll take you back into the same thing.

How come you didn’t receive the validation that every man needs his birth.

Mike Yarbrough: Yeah.

And you know not to give a pass to our dads I mean some of those really had rotten dad some of us didn’t have dads really around at all. But even even for the good dads I mean we can expect any human father to completely validate us in all respects so that we go out into the world you know on our own and we’ve got tremendous confidence and we’ve got new issues and we’ll have the right. So I think that even if you know guys listen to this going thank God for the father I had he really you know poured into me. That’s great. But I would even say the man you know don’t don’t go thinking that that what your dad gave you is all that you need. You still have got to come you know to God and and get that the ultimate validation from him.

John Eldredge: Yes. It’s my buddy Morgan pointed this out to me. You know in Ephesians Chapter 1 It talks about this joy that God had even before he made that world in planning on him being our father and us being his son. And I think I used to kind of look at that. Oh yeah. Well guys you know some guys have great dads. And while they won the lottery and the rest of us who kind of had a mixed bag or no no dad at all. God is the consolation prize like go away. Sick very sick. It was never meant to be the backup plan. Like not just that guy who still needed some fathering.

Well you know there’s God right.

No actually no matter how great your dad was he was still a broken man in a broken world and I’ll guarantee you he didn’t provide everything you needed. And for many of us my case included our fathers are gone now passed on. And can we still need fathering. So who will be your father every day. Who will who will take you through the next stages of your life like you might be doing great right now in a young marriage. What about when your wife hits applauds.

You know you might be feeling great with your kids at the Lego stage but it’s you know Mike and you hit the teenage years and things change.

It sounds this right.

You know the point is life keeps changing. It is always frontier. You never get to get it nailed down because the sooner you get it nailed down it changes who will be your father. Where will we find father. And and that’s. Yeah. That’s why good dads were meant to pass us off to God and bad dads actually show us what we were missing and how desperately we need God. I mean either way it’s still his father.

Mike Yarbrough: Yeah yeah absolutely. Hopefully this next piece will take us down a rabbit trail but I’ll try to think it’s still on topic here.

John Eldredge: Oh I love rabbit trails.

Mike Yarbrough: I really love this one. And I don’t think it’s too much of a rabbit trend. We’ll see where it goes. You know one of the things that I’m reminded of is how God sees things in us by by way of being God that our earthly fathers can’t see in us even if they are good. I’m reminded of the story in the bible of Samuel coming to Jesse and he’s looking. Samuel was looking for David to be the next king of Israel right. And and but you know Samuel shows up and says Hey Jesse you know one of your sons is going to be the next king of Israel and I’m here to anoint him. And so Jesse goes off to the field and he gets this big strong you know sons brings them forward. Samuel says here you go boys and and you know Samuel is like no no no one of these. Don’t you have another one right. And then is like wait David you know David’s out tin in the sheep. Little David now you know talking about him are you. Right. And I’m always just impressed by that. That Jessie even with the best of intentions you know I’m by all accounts you know a good dad as far as we know. I didn’t see in David what God saw in David. Right. And and wasn’t able to. Couldn’t couldn’t see it.

And so I think that you know even though that sometimes we may get validation from our fathers and from other guys and from our work in different things there is going to be a certain kind of validation or an image of us that God has for every man that only he can reveal to us. That’s not going to be is not going to come through. It may not come necessarily through another person except that it comes you know by way of God some sort of revelation maybe an epiphany or what have you but I just I just loved that scene in the Bible there.

John Eldredge: That is a fabulous fabulous insight into that. And I think a great way like of illustrating that to guys. Only one person that’s got really good eyes on you.

And and again through the stages of your life like you know you can go to periods of life and just feel super validated and maybe even a heart some really awesome things from Gandhi. He spoke in your life maybe you know you had to retreat yet an encounter. You know there was there are some intimate experiences but to be honest that’s kind of yesterday’s manner.

And what about today.

And what about tomorrow. Like we we still need. The intimacy and the knowing of us. I mean that the number of times that God is.

Caught me like caught me in a nose dive it’s like rescuing me from some pretty bad tailspins because of the intimacy that’s there and he’s able to speak into our lives and say hey you know let me rephrase this for you.

Let me tell you who you are. You say some fresh things to you. Like I man I need a fresh man.

Mike Yarbrough: Yeah yeah. Every day.

All right. That’s good good stuff. All right so that didn’t take us too much down a rabbit trail. I’m sorry that disappointed you.

John Eldredge: Oh great. That’s a great great story.

Mike Yarbrough: So of changing directions here a little bit. One of the things that I loved about Wild at Heart was some of the truthfulness that’s in there and that you were seeing things that a lot of times wouldn’t wouldn’t be said at church. And one of those things you mentioned earlier is that churches were letting men down that guys weren’t getting from church what either the division of masculinity or the ability to engage in some sort of masculine effort you know to put their strength into into their work. You know obviously while at heart the other books that you’ve done ran some ministries that about those things have had a tremendous impact on. I don’t know how many many tens of thousands I would imagine. And but since the 16 years ago when a child at heart came out. Have you seen any change in churches in sort of a positive direction. And if so what are those changes and if not you know what. What do you think we need to do about that.

John Eldredge: Yup.

Yup. Lots of positive lots and lots of positive. I think you know I wasn’t the only one that was ringing that bell and there were a number of other folks laughers pastors conference conference speakers that were beginning to kind of point to the same thing and then it began. It began out of the frustration of the church you know saying how can we get men to sign up for stuff. Right. How come everything in the church is run by women you know. And and it was a good question because it got them wondering what are we doing wrong. Why don’t we appeal to men. There was even a book that came out why men hate church. And so that all of that collective noise you know which I had it’s nice to kind of rang up a gong almost 20 years ago and it kept going back to Dalby and others before us. And yeah it changes sense that like I keep hearing of really solid programs in churches that are taking masculinity seriously and just starting with some really the process starting with the premise that God God was serious when he made gender and gender matters and men and women are not the same and they don’t even their spirituality like this is so huge. Our spirituality is not the same things that women respond to spiritually things that speed them spiritually or very different than than what feet men and so is the church has begun to say yup ok we see that in Genesis 1 we see that male and female gender thing is being really core they’ve begun to look for for solutions.

And and I would say none the less.

There’s this slippery thing. It’s really religious that keeps trying to get into those programs and then that religious thing keeps trying to.

Make it very programable tries to make it real conventional It keeps falling back into the kind of the accountability model.

So I just add that it’s a little yeah but Heads up guys like if it feels religious and run from it. Because the creepy religious stuff. That’s not what God is like. It’s not it’s not what you see in the Scriptures. Jesus didn’t like those guys very much. The main people that he he had conflicts with were high. We religious people. I don’t mean disciples it don’t mean faithful. But you talked about scribes and Pharisees teachers of the law.

But that was it that was a footnote to it. Yes. Yes. There are good good trends going on and in lots of corners of the world in the church today regarding raising up men Yeah that’s really good.

Mike Yarbrough: I’m seeing some of that as well. And I think the timing couldn’t have been better. I’m here in Charlotte so we’ve been the center of the whole transgender movement really for here it’s been around bathroom’s which is kind of odd but it’s still it’s been big and you know I think if we hadn’t had such a good foundation coming in from Wild at Heart and other movements to really kind of point to you know gender as being important and speaking to men specifically and speaking to women specifically still being something as important I don’t know that we would have as good an understanding about where we stand on some of these issues as we do today. So I think that was really good really good timing. I also want to point out something just an interesting insight here. I don’t know if you can duplicate this or not but this may have been a good marketing strategy on your part. So when I read Wild at Heart the first time I was you know tremendously impacted on it I wanted to go tell every guy about it. I went to my church’s bookstore and I thought certainly this thing is on the shelves in here right. And it wasn’t. And so I thought well that maybe they’ve overlooked it maybe is too new.

And I when I talk to some of the people in charge of the bookstore about it and and turns out that the book wasn’t really sanitized enough or whitewashed enough it didn’t really line up religiously enough to kind of make it to the inner inner sanctum of the church’s bookstore which was great for for the authenticity of wild at heart because it was like it’s kind of this rogue book.

Guys were sort of reading and they’re really connecting to. So if you can make your next book just as sort of you know slightly offensive to the religious powers and then you know so churches go avoid it a little bit. I think that’s a good maybe a good marketing tip. I don’t know.

John Eldredge: Oh it’s it’s carried on that’s for sure.

There’s you if you google channel John Eldredge you’ll find my detractors. It’s really very sad actually because we’re all on the same team. Guy it’s life at the very moment when the culture is collapsing. And as you are saying that transcend your movements and you know it’s just destroying humanity I guess at the last minute the last moment for us to be you know straining gnats and swallowing camels with one another. But yes you’re still seen as something of a rogue. And my last book wasn’t carried by a major Christian bookstore chain. And so that trend continues.

Mike Yarbrough: Well I think it’s sad actually because even with Wolf and Iron I’ve had people contact me and say hey you know I appreciate your ministry and I’ve said Well I never really thought about it as a ministry I guess it kind of is. But it’s different I mean I’m a Christian. I don’t consider Wolf and Iron a Christian ministry meaning that it’s for Christians should appeal to only to Christians it has kind of Christian speak in it and that kind of stuff I don’t start my podcast or my blog articles out with a you know a verse or anything like that. But I do infuse all of the Christian qualities in and obviously I want to speak to men such as yourself because I think is absolutely critical to being a good man. But I think that it’s sad because the what we call Christian today has become more a marketing term and it has some negative connotations with it. You know that is sort of whitewash sanitized you know watered down life basically. And you know one of the things I enjoy about how you present things is that you just you get kind of real you know. So that’s good yeah.

John Eldredge: Jesus was a very straightforward guy. And the religious establishment didn’t take real kindly to it.

That’s just an important thing to remember folks like the great enemy of the faith down to the ages has actually not been pagan. It’s been a religious religiosity you know legalism or or you know whatever the case may be that whatever the particular brand of it is in your era you know back in us and our folks day it was like you couldn’t you couldn’t go to the movies and there’s very very few churches that hold that anymore.

But that doesn’t mean that thing is gone that slippery thing it’s like the flute it just it changes you know it’s branding every year and comes out you know morphs into different religious forms but it’s still try and crush or counterfeit or floc or kind of a mask really would be a good word. What Jesus is really like and what the Gospels really likes it’s a good it’s up that the sound there.

Mike Yarbrough: Yeah.

So one of the things that I think you guys have a hard time with is is sort of this view of Christ or God. If we talk specifically about Christ being our elder brother being our close friend you know I think about your beautiful outlaw was illustrated this wonderfully Christ humanity. How do we how do we get a good view of Christ as someone who is new to us. And and understands us but also have this idea of Lordship you know in our life where we don’t kind of slide one way where we’re just all buddy buddy and we don’t go the other way where he’s a distant you know dictator you know do you have any tips on that.

John Eldredge: Yeah I do a couple of us on that one is. Everybody has that bent. You already have a leaning. You either lean towards more of the Reverent approach to God or you lean more towards a kind of not irreverent but maybe intimate friendly approach to God. And you just see people pick churches you know based on that. Some people go in for kind of a more holiness liturgy you know sovereignty teaching and high high views of that and then other people gravitate towards. No I kind of like the informal we’re in jeans you know. So you get the idea. So it’s just you have a pet you have an inclination be aware of that and make sure that you’re supplementing the other side because your inclination is going to take you in one direction to the neglect of the other. Right. God is both epic and intimate. He rules that galaxies which is just that it’s just mind boggling. But he is also in that water trap he’s he’s in that flower. He’s he’s he’s in that moment when you’re in your shop. He’s he’s right here he’s intimate but he’s also right sovereign over the heavens and the earth. And you have a leaning you have a pen. You choose your music. You choose your church experiences you know and you choose your reading. And it all kind of fits your Highness right now with all kind of fitting in one direction.

Yeah I would just say Heads up.

Just like any other you know anybody who kind of knows cross-training or you know nutritional programs like you know you don’t just eat your meat eating vegetables. You don’t just eat vegetables. Eat your meat.

Yeah. You know for any kind of healthy healthy parenting it’s like this.

You can’t just be your kids at all keep kids needed that you know they need an authority figure. They need somebody say you can’t do that. I will not let you spray paint my car red you know. And they need all they need. They need the snuggle time they need that time stories but they also need a dad who can be an authority figure. So I just say hats up guys. You noticed the way that you can climb and can supplement that like make some intentional choices. Wow. Like I mean I need to remember that God is infinite and I’ve kind of forgot that I to remember that God is sovereign. I think I forgot.

Yeah that’s good.

John Eldredge: That’s good. Trying to maintain a balance. Yeah and I like the idea too of having a default leaning just kind of how we’re wired up would you know probably have a vision of what your life is like what your day to day looks like. Probably not like what it is at all but give us an idea what makes you feel fulfilled as a man in what you’re doing now. Is there like you knows it hunting is it speaking is it a bunch of things. Is it writing you know where do you really find fulfillment in what you’re doing these days.

John Eldredge: You know this is a great great question because it allows us to think for a moment about the category of what you’re doing with your life. And and I would say there’s the casual The critical and the like. Yeah I love casual adventure. You bet. Went fly fishing last week kind of ball caught some killer trout going bow hunting for caribou this fall in the Northwest Territories. Can’t wait. So yeah I’ll venture. And and all kinds. You know I do that to try. And the mask on so deep that I’ve got to get out on my mountain bike I need to go for a run and get to know those whatever those things are that feed your soul. I think if you’ll be honest you’ll notice most of that stuff kind of fits in the category of casual adventures but there are more critical adventures. And when you ask me what makes me come alive like we have to talk about the war like the world is at war and then the war is raging and I’m not just talking about ISIS or China or Russia. I’m saying there is a massive massive public battle of Good and Evil raging. Can you see it taking people out left and right. I mean I live in I live in a very middle class neighborhood and any kid down the street just got addicted to heroin like Jesus hacked me and he comes from a Christian family. So you know I was getting taken out by serious serious sexual stuff and children trafficked. And what are you doing about the war.

So like when you ask me what energizes me you know I love the woods. And I think I have a particular addiction for global soccer World Cup soccer 5.

I can’t just live there like that’s not enough. When you ask me like what turns my crank gets hit some I’m that I am I’m in war I take the worst Seriously I’m fighting for people I fight for my family I am fighting for the movement of God on the earth. And and I think that’s the missing ingredient. You know I guy flies that day they chase the masculine thing. They get the first part of that combat. Well you know I’ve got to go to a wood shop now and I’m really enjoying that or hey that’s why we took up sailing and we’re we’re it’s we’re just loving that. But I’m telling you you’re living in a bigger story than your Cosway guys like. What’s missing is where’s the war. You’re a warrior and the world is at war. Where were you were you in the fight.

Where are you in the fight.

Mike Yarbrough: That’s awesome.

The best answer I could have ever gotten. That’s awesome. I think you’re absolutely right. And I think that men we do tend to focus on you know how am I doing in terms of my finances how am I doing in terms of you know getting my kids off to whatever college or you know upping my housing game or whatever the case is. And you’re right there is there’s a bigger story that we’re a part of and making this story a reality to us I think is the day to day challenge. It shouldn’t be hard. Right. Like you said sex trafficking. People get addicted to drugs. You know the craziness is happening and politically what have you. You know these things are all around us they should be very evident they were part of a great battle. And I think that you know if a man is going to wait and be directed towards an enemy to fight.

Then their man is something of a soldier and that’s fine. I mean I think we need soldiers sort of a part to play. But if a man is going to look at the world that he’s in and say there is my battle and I’m going to go into it I think that man is a king. And I think he recognizes his role is kingship over his home over his society that he’s a part of.

And chooses where he is going to be in the battle. And I think guys you got to ask the question are you going to be a soldier or are you going to be a king or are you going to lead battles or are you going to wait until someone until like is bad enough that one day you know somebody says look you’re going to like it or not. You know the world’s fallen apart. Your marriage is falling apart. Your community is fallen apart. You know we had the opportunity to strike the enemy now before he gets any more of the upper hand or any gains gains any more ground than he already has. So I think that’s excellent.

And there really charges me up.

John Eldredge: Clearly.

I love it.

Mike Yarbrough: Well look I know I know we’re getting short on time here. I wanted you to kind of in with a ways for people to kind of get connected with what you’re doing. You know guys you’re going to find out about the books I’m going to put that out there a lot of them are probably already reading the stuff that you’re putting out. But you and Stacy have been really busy with Ransom art ministries for a number of years now and you guys have got a number of things happening. Is there anything in particular that that you want to direct them to. If so let us know what that is.

John Eldredge: Yeah I kind of put it in if I were in your shoes. That’s kind of thinking why we’re in your shoes. Younger guys we’ve got a killer podcast for younger men than my sons do called And Sons podcast I’d dial into that. We do these we do these four day events for men Wild at Heart events for men mostly here in Colorado. We do do we do them around the world as well. And guys you just have to understand these are so powerful they become so popular that we had to go to a lottery because guys guys come from Brazil. They come from Russia. They come from China. They come from France. I mean it’s it’s we’ve we’ve got a very powerful thing. You. You could you could come if you want to come to Colorado and come to one. But here’s the thing. You can get the tapes. I mean get did get to get the digital download. I do two things listen to the podcast and get get the confidence get the retreat audios or video. It’s on video as well. And with the videos you could sit down with a couple of and watch them. They’re killer and then they’ll still bring a lot of good to your life.

Mike Yarbrough: That’s great. Well we’ll post the links to all those things. John has been an absolute pleasure to talk to you. This is one of the you know I would never dream that years ago when I was sitting around reading Wild at Heart for the first time that I would be leading my own men’s thing and then talking to you. And so this is this is definitely sort of a dream come true.

I don’t want to call it a bucket list item. I don’t want to put you out there on my death wish things to do. But you know what I’m saying. I really appreciate your time. And man I can’t wait to see all the things that you do over the coming years.

John Eldredge: Really. Really honored. As I said at the beginning to talk to you Mike and Web sites great hope guide click into that.

Got a lot to offer there so we go carry forward out there on that. On the East Coast.

Mike Yarbrough: Thank you sir.